Curse

clareice starling · Jul 12, 2006, 02:12 PM // 14:12

This post is not a rant or complaint, but to pose more of a gamer philosophy question. Ya, so the question that I am posing to all is why people complain and care so much about what others do in tombs if it was flawed from the start. And please don't turn this into a flame thread just a discussion of views on tomb pvp. Ok from the very beginning, most people did not have much clue about what to do in tombs, I am talking about the start. At this time the strongest build may have been minion factory from all the times I saw Lulu and friends win halls on the message. Balanced builds always existed in tombs from start, however next big flavor build maybe is spirit spam, then air spike, the ether prodigy smite, then ranger spike and iway, necro spike. You get the picture.

All I am saying is that, many tombers do play with the idea to win and if all these flavor builds exist for awhile before various nerfs why take tombs so seriously at all if it was flawed from the beginning? I admit I have played my fair share of fotm, mainly ranger spike, monking for a lot of it, but that does not mean I did not do balanced builds either.

What I do not understand is why many players view themselves as superior just for playing a certain build, such as balanced build players hating iway and iway hating balanced if everyone knows that tombs was flawed from the start in that certain skills in the game needed a nerf since their combos were too strong.

I think mainly the tombs system being flawed is why many people in pvp became jaded and moved away from tombs to gvg only to find that the gvg system also needs continuous balancing, and eventually pvp'er become pve player or quit game. Would like to know other's feedback, and no turning this into flame thread please.

JR · Jul 12, 2006, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Fixing Tombs so that inspires a level of competition simmilar to that of GvG is a rather large task.

it is obviously never going to be quite the same as people do PuG more often in HA than in GvG, but it could at least not encourage such horrible gimmicks.

Things that need changing? The objectives and win conditions of maps, and the fame mechanic. Basicly that would be a complete overhaul of HA that I don't think Anet is willing to perform yet.

Why complain about it? Well... people like to whine.

dare49devil · Jul 12, 2006, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Well. It is natural for people to complain..What do you do when you are not happy? :O

Anyway, you shouldn't generalize all people in one category. Maybe "eventually pvp'er become pve player or quit game." happens...But I have not seen much, but I am not saying it does NOT happen.

You do know, that if there was no fame mechanic...Builds such as vimway...iway...would barely be seen...Reason being all players would be running strictly builds to hold more often.

And about the "many players view themselves as superior just for playing a certain build" statement. I would probably say players such as myself started that.

People who enjoyed pvp for a long-period of time, or have been a long pvp-er. People who try to create their own builds, who have experience in holding, who have gotten their fame from holding. Who have dedicated their time to play new builds. Then we get a good build. We play it. Win win win, boom lose to IWAY, because iway is set to high pressure, no holding power.

And we get pissed that we lose to a build which is designed to FARM FAME, not complete the ultimate objective...To get to the Hall of Heroes and hold favor for your placement. A build which does not even require a communication system because it is so basic.

/end rant.

dbgtboy · Jul 12, 2006, 04:08 PM // 16:08

I am still dreaming of the day when the halls map gets smashed to pieces and instead just randomly cycles through maps, something like after winning courtyard you go back to underworld, and then after that you go to dark chambers, you get the picture. I think that would help ha a lot, there would be no more holding builds and people would have more fun if you ask me.

Divineshadows · Jul 12, 2006, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbgtboy

I am still dreaming of the day when the halls map gets smashed to pieces and instead just randomly cycles through maps, something like after winning courtyard you go back to underworld, and then after that you go to dark chambers, you get the picture. I think that would help ha a lot, there would be no more holding builds and people would have more fun if you ask me.

Taking away maps with altars and cycling the maps would make HA like an 8 person TA, which IMO would improve the builds and average skill level seen there. You wouldn't want to run garbage skills like healing seed or spellbreaker anymore. The ghostly hero could still exist, but would never be bound anywhere. Only question I have is how would this format determine the favor of the gods for PvE?

art_ · Jul 12, 2006, 06:08 PM // 18:08

I dislike the idea of removing the holding aspect. However I think the cramped nature of the maps needs to be addressed.

Dinkytowner · Jul 12, 2006, 06:44 PM // 18:44

This is coming from someone who is not yet jaded by the bullsh*t in HA, but I think that tombs kind of encourages what a-net was looking for (at least what they advertise) in GW PvP. They claim that there is a counter to every skill and and a counter to every build. What does this have to do with tombs? There is a variety of objectives on the maps which keeps builds from focusing on one thing, ie: holding, running relics, complete pressure. A holding build can have problems getting past UW and an iway can have problems with courtyard/HoH. The fact the these FOTM builds exist also encourages ppl to look for counters to them. For example wards > iway, ritualists > r-spike, cry and CG > Blood spike. The environment in HA simply encourages ppl to invent new builds and come up with a counter to these FOTM builds. Bottom line: HA encourages the good players to come up with something new. There will always be the copycats/FOTM builds no matter what you do with HA

dbgtboy · Jul 12, 2006, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Only question I have is how would this format determine the favor of the gods for PvE?

remove favour and give constant access, would make both pvers and pvpers happy.

Mental Leteci · Jul 12, 2006, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Whether battling horrific monsters or competing at the highest levels of tournament play, it will always be your skill that earns your victory or defeat.

Whata bunch of crap.

Del12 · Jul 13, 2006, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

Whether battling horrific monsters or competing at the highest levels of tournament play, it will always be your skill that earns your victory or defeat.

Whata bunch of crap.

I think skill matters a lot. The skill being what skill to use when, and how quickly you use it, mana management, position, etc etc.

Yes there have been overpowerful skills (smiting back in the day, or spirit spamming), but to ANET's credit, they have swung the nerf bat quite often. I think sometimes they overnerfed, and sometimes not enough, but everyone has an opinion. It could've been worse and they could never correct those things.

Personally, I dont play HA/GWs at all just cause it takes too long to make a specific group build. I've complained about that enough though and have moved on to different games.

yesitsrob · Jul 13, 2006, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Yes, one thing I really hate about HA is how for success in the more important match types you need to run horrible horrible monk builds with the likes of spellbreaker, healing seed... and also the positioning it encourages.

I think more maps like Underworld, Burial Grounds, and Dark Chambers would be good.... just so it's sort of like an 8 person team arenas... Broken Tower has to be the most idiotic match up there is, since if you don't completely suck Cap == Win, so windborne speed and interrupts pretty much win the match

, silly

Former Ruling · Jul 13, 2006, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

the ether prodigy smite

Ether Renewel.

Quote:

ritualists > r-spike

Not in the least lol. Shelter does little since the spike is in many little peices. And they can just spike off the Ritualist first...Ritualists are not R-spikes counter lol.

--------------------------------------------

Anyway...HA is boring from the start :\

MrBiggums · Jul 13, 2006, 10:49 PM // 22:49

so the question is why hate on fotm players when tombs is flawed? and this is coming from a strictly iway/rangerspike player?

hmm should be interesting

JR · Jul 13, 2006, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Former Ruling

Not in the least lol. Shelter does little since the spike is in many little peices. And they can just spike off the Ritualist first...Ritualists are not R-spikes counter lol.

There is more to Rits than Shelter; Displacement and Union will do a solid number on Rangerspike.

Boofhead · Jul 13, 2006, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Displacement lasts about 5 arrows.

glenn_rolfe · Jul 13, 2006, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

There is more to Rits than Shelter; Displacement and Union will do a solid number on Rangerspike.

well it is a tombs discussion so ppl wil pigeon hole everything

Look, when factions came in HA should have been totally smashed to pieces and it should have been a whole new map system to encourage a copy cat community to redevelop and come up with new builds.

But guess what, it wasn't, so people still just sit in wards, have shock wars, blah blah blah.

I've been burn't out of the place now since it has stagnated.

Frankly I find alliance battles more challenging than tombs. And until Anet redesign the maps the place will remain as stagnant as old cheese in my jocks.

Wasteland Squidget · Jul 14, 2006, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Bear in mind that GvG was a bit of a joke at release too. No one knew how to really split so the tactics weren't all that interesting even compared to Tombs, and the gametype itself had a lot of flaws. For example, the Bodyguards did not heal the guild lord and he had no damage cap, making him incredibly gankable with the right kind of spike. Te has a nice video of some ganks they did here.

With that kind of environment as the alternative, even Tombs looks good.

Dinkytowner · Jul 14, 2006, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boofhead

Displacement lasts about 5 arrows.

Lose the first five arrows and the spike is gone. Add 7 sec recharge to dual, adn the fact that everyone uses Ritual Lord (there's those darn copycats again

) and you have another spirit up and the next spike is toast as well. By then the spiking team usually has problems blossoming and it's gg. There are very few groups that can still run R-spike effectively post-factions. *Looks at [HooD]*

My point was not to get in a skill discussion though. It was simply to show that there are effective counters to everything in tombs and the it has accomplished SOME of the objectives that A-net had in mind.

Yunas Ele · Jul 14, 2006, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by dare49devil

And about the "many players view themselves as superior just for playing a certain build" statement. I would probably say players such as myself started that.

People who enjoyed pvp for a long-period of time, or have been a long pvp-er. People who try to create their own builds, who have experience in holding, who have gotten their fame from holding. Who have dedicated their time to play new builds. Then we get a good build. We play it. Win win win, boom lose to IWAY, because iway is set to high pressure, no holding power.

And we get pissed that we lose to a build which is designed to FARM FAME, not complete the ultimate objective...To get to the Hall of Heroes and hold favor for your placement. A build which does not even require a communication system because it is so basic.

If your build is only designed to hold HoH, obviously you're going to have struggles in other maps, the same way IWAY has struggles in holding maps. Your build is high holding power, no pressure.

glenn_rolfe · Jul 14, 2006, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yunas Ele

If your build is only designed to hold HoH, obviously you're going to have struggles in other maps, the same way IWAY has struggles in holding maps. Your build is high holding power, no pressure.

caster spike has only ever needed 1 or 2 skills dedicated to killing, another for energy management, a res sig, then 4 skills for holding